Stray notes about SYSTEMA "Dialog between Mikhail Ryabko and Issho Fujita - Systema as Seen by
Stray notes about SYSTEMA
"Dialog between Mikhail Ryabko and Issho Fujita - Systema as Seen by a Zen Priest"
Facilitator, Author: Takahide Kitagawa
Interpreter: Daiki Horiguchi
Translated: Syuho Osawa
Date: April 17, 2016
Location: Arakawa Sports Center (Tokyo)
The Closed Domain
Kitagawa - Issho-San, it was your second attendance to Mikhail's seminar today. How did you feel?
Issho Fujita - I think I am not qualified to talk with Master Mikhail like this, as there are so many other serious Systema practitioners here, but I'd like to take advantage of this opportunity to ask several questions.
I felt, from my experiences today and at the previous seminar I attended, that, although the practices were varied, they all taught only one thing, from different perspectives. Those many kinds of works we practiced were not different altogether, but seemed to have a single common teaching at the core. That single teaching is, however, hard to grasp.
As we tend to be deluded by what we see with our eyes, it's hard to understand the important thing with our body. It amuses me very much, and at the same time I am frustrated at not knowing what's happening here. What do you think of that, Mikhail?
Mikhail - Well, first of all, I should say that I am honored to have you again at my seminar. As it is your second experience, you seem to have understood Systema more profoundly than the last time.
Your question was such a far-reaching one that I cannot give a sufficient answer at this moment.
In Systema, and perhaps in any other martial art, there are three distinct domains: the "physical domain", the "internal domain", and the "closed domain," which can be reached by a very limited number of people. Your question was about that "closed domain." I am wondering myself how I could explain this to other people.
If you are a newcomer, or you cannot practice frequently enough, it is natural that your skill is insufficient. Everything you see or do is new to you, so your body cannot keep up with it. If you continue to practice, you will notice that you can see and do more and more things. I can do it, so you will be able to do it, too.
Issho - I'm not sure about that. (laughs) When I see your work, what makes me wonder the most is that everything is finished the moment it begins. When it starts, it's already decided. What you do afterwards seems to be only a follow-up. Today I noticed that someone practicing with you said something like "Oops!" unconsciously when you touched him. It was as if his body was surprised, or his soul was surprised. Such a deep surprise gave rise to that cry naturally.
I was once practicing Aikido. When I was training with one of my teachers, I would give out that kind of cries, too. I was ashamed, but I could not stop it. As to the long weapon (editor's note: "Long weapon" was the topic of the day, so we practiced using long weapons like spears, polearms etc.), the weapon tracked my move smoothly as if linked by a thread, even though it never actually touched my body. There was that kind of continuous connection, and the weapon was led by that connection.
The Martial Art and the Body Created By the History
Issho - One more thing that I noticed when I saw Mikhail and Daniil was that they had very smart bodies. What I mean by "smart" is that they choose the best move instantly without thinking. They do not think and then act; their body follows the necessary movement as though it were already decided. They spend no time looking for an answer.
When I practiced taking the stick away from my partner today, I started to think immediately, but I feel that kind of effort will take me in the wrong direction.
Mikhail - Historically, Russia has had a lot of wars. Enemies fell upon us from every direction, with a multitude of attacking styles. In order to adapt to such battles quickly, the Russians had to master various ways of fighting.
Combat sports started in Russia in about the 19th century. Until then, battles happened between countries and nations, or someone struggled with another in the open air. People learned to fight by participating in those actual battles.
Though the number of battles may be higher in Europe, Japan also has had a unique culture of fighting, like twirling a sword skillfully.
Issho - I assume that Russian martial arts are representative of Russian life styles, food, weather, natural features and everything like that. Is Systema the mainstream of the Russian martial arts, or are there any other ones completely different and contrastive?
Mikhail - In China and Japan, major martial arts developed into combative sports. Boxing in Europe followed the same path. Many people enjoy these as sports matches. In Japan, people were prohibited by law to possess swords long ago, but some elements may have remained in their life styles and traditions.
Similarly, in Russia, atheism prevailed in the Soviet era and religions were prohibited. That closed period continued for 70 years. What survived those times were the sports.
Issho - Like Sambo?
Mikhail - Sambo has its roots in Systema, too. Once Khrushchev, the then leader of the Soviet Union, said that Russia needed its own unique martial art. Consequently, Sambo was created from the ancient martial arts of Russia, they say. If you would like to know the history of Sambo, you may want to see the history of Judo. Judo was born in Japan as a martial art, and subsequently, various forms were created, and judges were introduced, to make it a major sport.
Sambo also started as a martial art, forms and techniques were created, and judges were introduced to make it a sport. However, Sambo could not become an Olympic sport, so it does not have as many large international competitions as Judo has. For that reason, although there are many Sambo learners in Russia, many skillful players shift to Judo to attend large international competitions.
There are many schools in Sambo, and some of them are made for fighting. Specifically, in the Soviet era, Combat Sambo was developed intensively to aid in training the spies. However, these days Sambo has become simplified, protectors were introduced, and it got mixed up with boxing and Karate, so personally I don't like to see it.
Systema and Sports
Issho - In Japan, martial arts have intentionally dropped martial characteristics to survive as a sport or a gymnastic activity. Mr. Yoshinori Kono points out that we have forgotten all the sophisticated methods inherited from the past to use our body to move without any noisy gestures, and we have adopted the ways of moving suitable for the sports, measurable by measurements of physical fitness. That's why I think it is dangerous for the martial arts to become like sports.
On the contrary, Systema will not become like sports, right? I am very pleased to hear that Mikhail has no intention to introduce ranks or matches in Systema. But aren't you ever urged by the people around you or the people learning Systema to introduce sports-like elements like ranks and matches in Systema?
Mikhail - That is a very good question. In Russia, we call those delightful words "honey for the ears." (laughs) It is true that some people advise me having ranks introduced in Systema or doing matches. Others say that I should define forms of strikes and using weapons. But those things will get you nowhere.
I believe that authentic martial arts should never do matches. For example, the works of spears we practiced today, how do you judge them? You can't, right? There are severe limitations in practicing spears using only wooden sticks. You can't believe that wooden sticks are real spears.
If you want true objectivity or reality, you should use authentic weapons, but in practice, we have to do without them. It is the same for the knife practices. It's kind of a pity, I must admit.
Issho - Rules are indispensable to sports. There are a number of limitations; you can't hit on the face, you can't kick, you can't use weapons, and so on. As a result, our sensations can become very dull, or very unnatural.
In contrast, Systema practitioners can never assume from which direction attacks will come. I think it is very rare to practice such omnidirectional reactions. That may be one of the main reasons Systema training is so enjoyable. If Systema becomes like sports, this advantage may fade away, so I truly hope you will not make Systema a sport.
Mikhail - You said something very important, Issho-san. If I introduce matches in Systema, more people may want to learn it. If I give out belts or ranks like Karate, the number of learners may also go up. That would make me a millionaire. But I'm not going to do it.
For me, the most favorable future of Systema is that it continues to be what it is now. That is, never introducing points, belts, ranks, classes, or anything like that. As Issho-san said, we have to bear a lot of limitations if Systema is to become a sport. Boxers compete by hitting each other, but they are forbidden to hit certain places by rules. Boxing is a battle of punches, but those punches are restricted punches. Systema practitioners also hit each other, but they never hit unnecessarily hard.
Issho - I have seen a video of children training Systema. I felt it was like playing, although I'm not sure "playing" is the proper word to use. They were crawling and rolling on the floor in very interesting ways. It made me recall my past. I remember, as a child, I played pushing, kicking, or hitting one another in a group.
Children learn by doing various movements in different situations, with different people, in different groups. In gymnastics, however, we only learn individual techniques like how to run fast or how to jump over a vaulting box, instead of making the body fundamentally strong. In contrast, Systema seems to aim at developing the body itself. It is not a mere art of self-defense, but a practical entry point for improving the body intelligence and having a smarter body.
Mikhail - Absolutely correct. I have nothing to add.
The Similarity between Systema and Zen as seen by Mr. Fujita
Kitagawa - Issho-san, what is your impression on Systema from a viewpoint of a religious practitioner?
Issho - Mikhail holds something like a rosary (editor's note: a "chotki (komboskini)", used by Eastern Orthodox believers when praying). It corresponds to a Buddhist ritual implement. It is the first time that I ever saw someone who holds this ritual implement, something that is spiritual, in his left hand, and at the same time manipulates a spear by his right hand. It seems very symbolistic that he has a ritual implement in his left hand and a spear in his right hand.
I feel that the quality we can achieve in Systema training reveals itself in everyday life as the psyche and the body coordinated at the very high level. With this quality, we can respond to enemies' attacks without disturbing our balance, while paying attention to people around us in order to avoid hurting them inadvertently. I think that is a very religious kind of living.
What I am doing as a Zen practitioner is very much alike. It is not some holy and abstract seeking, but trying to find moment by moment anew the most natural way of being in the face of what is happening right now, right here.
We are not trying to accomplish what we want by force, or trying to do exactly what we have planned beforehand. We should be waiting, always opening ourselves to the overall environment. It is not doing what we think; it is just being in that state. I felt Daniil's moves were very soft reactions, never crashing hard against the opponent. Such an ability is quite in line with what I wish to realize in my Zen practices.
Mikhail - Nothing to add, again. (laughs) You said everything I have to say. Systema tells us that every person is unique, and at the same time there are some things that are common to everyone. The first thing to do is to know yourself, that is, to see in what direction you are heading. That is the most essential point.
Issho - I totally agree.
Questions from the Audience - 1.
Is Human Nature Inherently Good or Evil?
Kitagawa - Does anyone here have a question?
Question - I'd like to ask both of you whether you believe human nature is inherently good or evil.
Issho - I don't know what you understand as good and evil, but as for me, I think that good and evil can change at any time. What is good and what is evil depend on the situation you are in. You don't necessarily have to determine good or evil; there can be a third choice. Only two choices seem insufficient to me.
Mikhail - That's what I was going to say, again. (laughs) As Issho-san said, a person can be either good or evil depending on the situation. At the first day of this seminar (editor's note: the day before we had this talk), I talked about how important it is to control your emotions. If you can control your emotions, you can always make a correct decision.
However, we cannot force someone to be a good person, or to be an evil person. That is something he should choose himself. We can only suggest him what kind of emotions we could have and how we could face those emotions.
For example, the Bible tells us of the Ten Commandments of Moses. One of them commands us not to kill. If everyone in the world abided by this Commandment, there should be no wars on the globe. No one is killed; no armies, no weapons are necessary. We would spend no time and no money for wars. Another Commandment is "Thou shalt not steal." If this Commandment were observed all over the world, and there were no act of stealing, what would happen? Imagine it. You can safely leave the door of your house open, and you need no keys. You have no needs for security measures for your car. There is also a Commandment that tells you to honor your parents.
Suppose your son married someone's daughter. He may say to the bride, "I don't like your father because he is so old and broken-down." And he may put her father in a basket and throw him out of the door. I hope I will not be treated like that. (laughs) The old man says to himself, "It's true I am old and weak, and nobody needs me anymore. It's natural they treat me like an eyesore." But he protests like this. "You don't have to put me in a basket. The basket may be of use, so keep it and only throw me away. The basket will be needed when the one who put me into it grows old in his turn." (laughs) So everyone here please take good care of your parents.
Also, you should do to others what you want them to do to you. If you follow those rules, peace will come, and everyone on the earth will be able to live happily. You are happy, your parents are happy, and your children are happy. That is the world without any evil. I could site all of the Ten Commandments here, but you could read them somewhere.
Questions from the Audience - 2.
Self-help and Outside Help
Question - There are concepts of "Jiriki" and "Tariki." (Translator's note: Buddhist terms for "self-help" and "outside help", respectively.) Which one is predominant in Systema?
Mikhail - I believe in God. I believe that God exists and he created everything, so he will not forsake me. I also believe in the words in the Gospel, "He who believes will be saved." In Japan, some people served the shogun. Similarly, one can serve the God. You get money by serving the shogun, and you are protected and get other benefits by serving the God. On the other hand, believing in yourself starts by knowing yourself. By knowing where and with whom you are, and what your existence means, you get confidence in yourself.
Issho - I have the impression that the use of force in Systema relates to "Tariki" (outside help). Dogen Zenji (translator's note: Japanese Zen priest in the 13th century) said that you should believe in the Buddha, that is, in the nature, and relax by surrendering your psyche and body. In that way, the nature gives us strength that enables us to serve various functions. I think the moves in Systema works that way.
Mikhail - I agree. You have your own God. You get reward by praying to your God.
Issho - I feel that Mikhail and Daniil are not using the force of their hands, but are moving as a whole. Since they are more relaxed than we are, they can get more help from outside. On the contrary, we cannot stop relying on our own forces.
Mikhail - That corresponds to the "closed domain." There are three domains in martial arts: the technical domain, the internal domain, and the "closed domain." I haven't shown the "closed domain" here.
Issho - But it exists, that domain.
Mikhail - Bravo. That's true.
--Profile--
Issho Fujita (right in the photo) The second head director of the Soto Zen Buddhism International Center. He withdrew from his doctoral course in educational psychology at Tokyo University and became a Sotoshu priest. At 33 he left for America and for the next 17 and half years he provided guidance in zazen at Pioneer Valley Zendo in the United States. He wrote "Modern Lectures on Zazen: The Path to Shikantaza" (Kosei Shuppansha), "Buddhism 3.0: An Update" (Gentosha, joint authorship with Ryodo Yamashita), "A Class on Zen" (Chuokoron-Shinsha, joint authorship with Hiromi Ito), and translated "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind 2" (Samgha) and many other books. Web site: Fujita Issho Official Website http://fujitaissho.info/english
Mikhail Ryabko
The founder of Systema. Born in 1961, he started training at five, and began to take practical lessons on fighting at the age of 15. He has served four agencies of the Russian government, including the Russian Interior Ministry Special Rapid Response Unit (SOBR), working in hostage rescue and counter-terrorism operations and training of bodyguards. He is now an advisor to the Russian Attorney General, and at the same time teaches Systema at the Moscow headquarters and other places all over the world.Moscow Headquarters Website: http://www.systemaryabko.com/en.html
Author: Takahide Kitagawa
Certified in 2008 as the second Systema instructor in Japan by Mikhail Ryabko, Takahide Kitagawa teaches more than four hundred classes a year, including Systema Tokyo classes and many culture school classes around Tokyo. Those classes see various participants from young children to aged people. He has had classes for the students of some public schools in Japan, including the National Defense Academy of Japan and public elementary schools. He is also working to introduce Systema through TV and magazines to the public. web site SYSTEMA TOKYO